Illegal Trailer / Rigs
This post was by Sealure but put in the wrong place. I have copied and pasted here where perhaps it has more relevence.
This is my first post and I really enjoy the discussions that take place.
My friend and I attended the Mandurah Boat show on Friday.
We are both enthusiastic fishermen and old hands at boat/trailer ownership.
I was obvious to us that a number of the larger boat/trailer combinations on offer would exceed the 3.5 ton legal towing capacity of 4 wheel drives such as Toyota landcruisers.
We asked several exhibitors about weights.
We were repeatedly re-assured that a landcruiser would tow the rigs in question. The weights quoted never included fuel,water, electronics, anchor and fishing gear etc..
Their complete indifference to legal issues was frightening.
If involved in an accident insurance on boat,car and trailer is null and void.
A civil suit could see the owner lose all their possessions.
Criminal charges and jail terms are possible.
On the east coast boats and trailers are frequently subjected to weighing tests.
Sooner or later the Dept. of Transport over here will do the same.
In the meantime much more should be done to protect buyers from the sale of rigs which fail to meet legal requirements.
Cheers
Andy Mac (Fishwrecked Reeltime Editor & Forum Moderator)
Youngest member of the Fishwrecked Old Farts Club
catchalittle
Posts: 1875
Date Joined: 04/09/08
typical salesmen more
typical salesmen more interested in a sale a good point raised sealure
Nathan
Vinesh87
Posts: 2751
Date Joined: 02/04/11
Yep and the answer to be over
Yep and the answer to be over 2.5m is dont worry about it, we dont !!
Fish guts
Posts: 318
Date Joined: 20/07/12
That's a great point you
That's a great point you make.
All men are equal before fish....
Rob H
Posts: 5812
Date Joined: 18/01/12
2 tonne is another problem
2 tonne is another problem point-seen MANY on sale that would be lucky to scrape 2000kg empty/dry let alone with a 6 pack and 20 litres of juice on board.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
red dawn
Posts: 104
Date Joined: 29/11/10
It's not only the big rigs.
There are plenty of boat/trailer combinations that might be around the 750-1000 kgs that have no trailer brakes. I understand that often the trailer will be taken over the pits with no boat on it, which is all you need to do, and the hull is just put on without any worries about what the combined weight then adds up to. Not too many boats over 15 ft will stay under the limits for brakes.
r.gates
Posts: 573
Date Joined: 15/11/10
Good point
When I was wandering around the boat show on Friday, looking at all the big flash trailer boats, I was wondering the exact same thing....what the hell do you tow these big tubs with....some sort of truck, maybe. I never asked any of the exhibitors, but the question sure crossed my mind.
regards
rusty...
If life is boring, you must be doing it wrong!
Quobbarockhopper
Posts: 392
Date Joined: 28/05/10
Whats the WA laws for
Whats the WA laws for weights/ sizes requiring trailer breaks etc...?
bellony
Posts: 94
Date Joined: 27/01/10
http://www.transport.wa.gov.a
http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/LBU_VS_IB_107.pdf
Rob H
Posts: 5812
Date Joined: 18/01/12
pretty basic-under 750kg, no
pretty basic-
under 750kg, no brakes required
750-2000kg-brakes on one axle
2000kg+-brakes on all wheels fitted with a breakway system capable of applying the brakes effectively for at least 15 minutes if the trailer becomes disconnected from the tug.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
red dawn
Posts: 104
Date Joined: 29/11/10
it's not quite as basic as that
You also need to take into account what the manufacturer's braked/unbraked towing limits are for your particular car. Many, if not most, normal passenger cars, even including until fairly recently the commodore, are only rated up to 500 or so kg without brakes...
Rob H
Posts: 5812
Date Joined: 18/01/12
I really didnt think that
I really didnt think that would need to be said RD.
I just assumed he was talking about trailer brakes-not tugs.
I havent had a normal car for many years so wasnt aware of that-but I cant say Ive seen a trailer under 750kg that has brakes fitted?
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
meglodon
Posts: 5981
Date Joined: 17/06/10
ep same thing crossed my mind
i saw a great looking rig at the boat show but the wqeight would have to be pushing 3 and a bit tonne it was on a 6 wheels trailer an d i was told that a landcruiser would easly tow it to exmounth,give me a break i would not like to be following it into the hills the other side of geraldton i think you would be in for a mighty long slow drive if the clutch servived that is
Slap
Posts: 16
Date Joined: 14/08/12
Nice heads up post!
Nice heads up post!
Stopping and Smelling the Flowers.
Buz
Posts: 1555
Date Joined: 28/08/07
Sort of the same just
Sort of the same just watching some of the boats being launched at boat ramps on busy weekends. Soooo many big boats(well over 750kg) with no brakes at all or had mechanical brakes but you can see the wire connecting them is missing. Same with seeing some very big boats being towed by obviously underated towing vehicles.
Which really makes me wonder with all these people towing such big things that are clearly overweight, or dont have the required braking systems, does anyone actually know first hand anyone that has had an accident and not been paid out by insurance or copped further fines/court action?
Just because you hear it all the time that exceeding the limits of towing and towing vehicle and your insurance will be voided and you could face all sorts of further action/fines, yet i have never actually heard of anyone copping this? Surely there have been people that have been towing overweight boats/caravans that have crashed?
sunshine
Posts: 2626
Date Joined: 03/03/09
Standard Insurance Coverage
Private Motor Insurance is governed by the Insurance Contracts Act and ALL policies available in the marketplace MUST meet minimum coverage criteria.
Virtually all policies are pretty much the same wording wise and will contain the following express exclusion (worded identically or very similarly):
The policy does not cover ANY loss, damage or legal liability occuring IF your vehicle ...............
is being used to carry more passengers or carrying or towing a heavier load than it was designed for.
So the issues raised by the posters above are entirely valid. And yes having been in the game over 40 years I can say with certainty that I have seen losses refused by insurers through the application of that exclusion. Critically nowadays it is incumbent upon the insurer to show that the overloading actually and manifestly contributed to the accident...........they cannot simply deny the claim because of the overlaoding if it did not contribute to ameanigful dgreee to the accident in question. That does not mean that some of the more unscrupulous or fine print focussed insurance companies dont try to get away with denials where the accident was in no way contributed - I have even seen one where the vehicle / boat was hit from behind and they tried to deny - thankfully the FOS stepped in and overturned the denial
GenesisCraft
Posts: 27
Date Joined: 03/08/11
Weights
It is good to see alot of people out there with their heads screwed on about this issue though. Only around 60% of the people who enquired about our boats at the show asked us how much they weighed and would their car tow it.
I have seen one poor bloke go through hell with his insurance company over this exact theme! In the end he got his money but the whole process took about 8 months so you could imagine the pain he went through.
And he had bought the package not thinking to ask questions about weights and towing. Before you ask the boat was an easter states hull/trailer. All of our brochures now include approximate dry hull weights purely for these reasons. Obviously the total weight is going to be affected by the motor you choose and the amount of fuel you are going to want plus other factors but these basic weights help with the entire process.
We to believe that there should be a governing body that should make sure boats are placed on the correct trailer. But it doesn't just stop with the boats I have seen plenty of caravans that would easily weigh 2T+ hanging off the back of a commodore with the ass end nearly dragging along the road so something definitely has to be done about it here.
Cheers.
Genesis Craft Management
Barrd Up
Posts: 75
Date Joined: 25/10/08
I saw a accident involving a
I saw a accident involving a large boat where the tow vehicle had run into the back of the vehicle in front, outside Bunbury about 2 years ago. The police were in attendance as were the weights & measure boys and as I drove past they were set up to weigh the boat trailler. So it would appear if weights & measures are available and the police are concerned they will weigh the trailler.
I also have a friend who drives loads in and out of Port Hedland on a regular basis and is often subject to weights & measures stops. He has told me that in conversations with weights & measures they have said they would like to do more stops on boats as they are concerned many are not compliant. I am sure if there was to be an accident with fatalities involving a large boat we would see more random checks.
Mark
Rob H
Posts: 5812
Date Joined: 18/01/12
weights and
weights and measures-Transport Inspectors-also known to truckies as "Mermaids" (c++ts with scales)
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
joycey
Posts: 251
Date Joined: 28/05/11
So true about a lack of
So true about a lack of awareness about weights.
I recently went through the process of buying a used 5.2-5.5m ( no older than 10 years old ) glass boat and on every single boat I viewed both private and dealership, the trailer capacity was under the the actual boat/motor/trailer weight, ie illegal.
The actual rig I eventually bought weighed 1.4-1.5 tonne fully loaded, and was sitting on a trailer rated to 1 tonne. Bought the boat and got new trailer rated to 1.65 tonne.
What I found alarming was a totally lack or awareness of both private sellers and dealers, frightening really when you consider the consequences to you or others if involved in an accident.
It was clear that when the boat was set up new, the dealers were putting on the bare minimum trailer to keep selling costs attractive. This all suggests to me there are a lot of boats out there on illegal trailers. Don't know whether this is still the case these days with new boats....
Joycey.
Paul H
Posts: 2104
Date Joined: 18/01/07
One other thing you need to
One other thing you need to keep in mind. Have a look at the Motor Vehicle Personal Injury sheme in WA. If you injure someone and your towing above the towing capacity you could find yourself facing recovery proceedings for the cost of injury you cause. Could be very expensive and more so then the cost of vehicle damage depending on the extent of injuries.
Our scheme in SA in slightly different but imagine the cost if you put someone in a wheelchair or some other serious injury etc. Recovery through seizure of assets (ie house) is a possibility if your unable to pay up.
Just something else to keep in mind.
Cheers
Youtube Channel - FishOnLine Productions
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbUVNa-ViyGm_FTDSv4Nqzg/videos
just dhu it
Posts: 1081
Date Joined: 14/05/09
weigh your rig
my view is that we are very relaxed in this area ( regulations) in WA and it should be bought in and from what i have heard on the east coast they have inspectors at thet ramp and pull up cars that are over their tow limit and ratings and the owners have to leave their rigs at the rmp and get a more suitable tow car,, , i would suggest those who havent looked acurately into what their car can legally tow and most of all what your boat and trailer actually weighs including the basics , fuel and standard gear as there should always be some spare in the total weight , i took my rig over the weigh bridge and was very suprised to find out that mine was 300 kgs over what i had assumed it was , which blows out even more on a long trip..
Buz
Posts: 1555
Date Joined: 28/08/07
Did the same, took my boat
Did the same, took my boat over the local tip registered weigh bridge. Boat+Trailer had stated weight of 1200kg dry. Actual weight with 100L of fuel, batteries, anchor+rope was 1312kg. Which for my old 2.8L Hilux was 112kg over the max braked tow capacity(1200kg).
My newer(2002) 3.0L TD hilux is 1800kg braked capacity. So got a few more kg's to play with now :)
Rob H
Posts: 5812
Date Joined: 18/01/12
hey Buz-my 95 2.8 Hilux was
hey Buz-my 95 2.8 Hilux was 1500kg braked?
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Buz
Posts: 1555
Date Joined: 28/08/07
Hey Rob sorry you are
Hey Rob sorry you are correct. I meant to say the factory towbar on it was only rated to 1200kg. You are right the 2.8L Hilux's are rated to 1500kg Braked. So when i had my old Lux i had to fit a more heavy duty reece style towbar of 1800kg to allow the car to pull my boat. But thats the thing even with the heavier duty towbar the car was still only rated to 1500kg braked, which meant with a boat/trailer weight of 1312kg i could really only put another 180kg of gear in it and i would be over.
Bit more leeway with my newer Lux being 1800kg braked. Would love a new Ford Ranger though :)
Rob H
Posts: 5812
Date Joined: 18/01/12
yeah Ive got the same lux
yeah Ive got the same lux now as you, same reason. My boat is 1500kg dry and empty so with 250litres of juice its nearly there already.
Id prefer a DMax myself I think
But I kind of like not worrying about knocking it round too.
Let me know when your up this way again, if Im in town itd be good to meet.
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
Buz
Posts: 1555
Date Joined: 28/08/07
Haha no worries Rob. Wont be
Haha no worries Rob. Wont be up that way again till probably next winter again looking for the big Greenbacks. Just started my summer job, so will pretty much be no leave and basically no weekends for the next seven months :)
Gotta love the Turbo for towing and overtaking hey :)
New Dmax's look very nice too. Would definitly be my second choice form what i have seen about all the new Dual Cabs so far. Hahaha one of the blokes at work got an amarok as his work car and the other got a Ranger. The Amarok guy is hoping he might write it off this summer so he can get rid of it. Piece of poo in his opinion.
Rob H
Posts: 5812
Date Joined: 18/01/12
No worries, Whats ya summer
No worries, Whats ya summer job?
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
iana
Posts: 652
Date Joined: 21/09/09
Been thinking about this
Been thinking about this thread. I guess its OK to call a boat trailer combo a "Rig", but I associate a rig being a prime mover and trailer combination. Supposing you went out and brought a semi-trailer "Rig", the responsibility of the loading on that trailer would be that of the driver.
So therefore when buying a boat thats loaded on a trailer, you are buying a trailer that couples to your vehicle, and you know the towing limits of that "Rig", and then loading it with a boat. Technicly I don't think it is a boat salesmans job to ensure you have loaded your trailer properly.
He's only selling you a boat and a trailer. Its the drivers responsibility to have correct loading.
Rob H
Posts: 5812
Date Joined: 18/01/12
I thinks its more to do with
I thinks its more to do with knowingly putting a minimal trailer under a boat that has no hope of conforming in practice
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
glastronomic
Posts: 892
Date Joined: 16/02/11
Well that is all well and
Well that is all well and good, but people are not willing to pay one cent more than the absolutly have to.
When it rolls out of the yard and it is legal that is the matter.
You load it up/modify it, your responsibility!
Same with a road registered car, you modify it in any way without it being done by the dealership, your responsibility!
.
thesupervisor
Posts: 1136
Date Joined: 10/06/09
damn right seen a guy at
damn right seen a guy at boat city asking for the spare tyre to be deleated from the deal beacause he doesnt need it and its expensive I hate to see his safty equip on board
getting the bottom line final answer from a bunch of blokes that use false names and put smiley faces at the end of paragraphs is not the best place in the world to get the information you seek.
glastronomic
Posts: 892
Date Joined: 16/02/11
Sadly that is the
Sadly that is the real world, Supervisor, and when it turns to $hit , it is someone else his fault!
scottnofish
Posts: 1621
Date Joined: 28/08/07
my trailer is rated on the
plate on the trailer as 3 tonne yet the rims bearings and hubs that are on it are only rated 1400 kg per axle 2800kg total yet when we put the boat and trailer over the weigh bridge it came in at 3.6 with all the tanks full and fishing gear onboard ,I am now looking at upgrading my axles hubs & rims to the landcruiser style to get my correct rating .As far as i can tell the trailer has been this way from new and has now been like that for 17 years
Rob H
Posts: 5812
Date Joined: 18/01/12
yep thats something I found
yep thats something I found out a while back also, holden/ford bearings+45mm sq axle only 1400kg.
need the 50mm sq.
You may also find Scott, that if it has been continuously regoed for 17yrs its the standard to which it was built that applies.
As per pre 1969? cars with no seatbelts etc
Give a man a mask, and he'll show you his true face...
The older you get the more you realize that no one has a f++king clue what they're doing.
Everyone's just winging it.
iana
Posts: 652
Date Joined: 21/09/09
New laws.
On my post above, about the driver being responsible, I'm wrong, apparently new laws have or are comming out that appropriates blame to the loader (forklift driver etc) and the owner of the business that handles the loading. For instance if you take your prime mover to a place and couple up a trailer that is pre loaded, and you get pulled up by weights and measures, then that company is responsible not you.
Therefore if you buy a boat that is pre loaded on a trailer, and that company couples it to your vehicle, and there is any over loading problems then they are responsible. That also includes the towing capacity of your vehicle, including the towbar capacity.
morgs
Posts: 109
Date Joined: 25/10/11
For those who went to the
For those who went to the boat show, did the notice the larger than normal ball sizes (especially on the leisure cats) and the hugely lifted F-Truck that was towing them parked out the front? A cruiser would be struggling to pull that kind of gear around the countryside.