please explain
Submitted by dumper on Sat, 2009-10-10 14:04
Just seen blue juice are offering EXTREME deep sea fishing, so they can dodge the bans over oct, nov, dec. Unless I missed the last media release out of 831, I thought the ban was for ALL demersal fish apart from kgw. Whats going on?
big john
Posts: 8766
Date Joined: 20/07/06
Jigging
Maybe their just trying to 'dress-up' sambo jigging. LOL
John
WA based manufacturer and supplier of premium leadhead jigs, fligs, bucktail jigs, 'bulletproof' soft plastic jig heads and XOS bullet jig heads.
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till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
Their website suggests that
Their website suggests that they're going to be targeting species not covered by the ban; gem fish and ruby snapper.
Edit: what are gemfish anyway?
dumper
Posts: 1027
Date Joined: 03/04/08
and kill everything else
and kill everything else they pull up. ken idiots
BlueJuice
Posts: 12
Date Joined: 16/07/09
dumper...
Dumper we have been very careful in selecting the species and the grounds we are fishing for them... Yes we may bring up a banded cod every now and then, but we are fishing well away from dhueys, pinkys, baldies etc. the species they are protecting.
In testing our new grounds, 4 trips we did not bring up anything on the cat 1 species list.
get annoyed that you think charter boats are just out there to kill fish... it's in our best interest to preserve fish, and take a great deal of care in their release.
hlokk
Posts: 4294
Date Joined: 04/04/08
I agree that its in both
I agree that its in both sectors best interests to ensure the future of the fishery. I think a few forum members may have some concerns against charters due to the practices of some charters (theres certainly a few examples floating around).
Though, not all charters are the same, so it might not be fair to lump you guys in with other charter operaters who arent as responsible. If you guys are showing genuine responsibility, then I would say you would be accepted for that, but I think in a lot of peoples minds, you would need to demonstrate it first (regardless of whether you think its fair to be automatically linked with some of the less scrupulous operators or not).
till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
Sure, but thats the point of
Sure, but thats the point of good legislature. If there are holes, they're going to be exploited.
fishing fanatic
Posts: 809
Date Joined: 01/05/09
maybe like marlin and things
maybe like marlin and things at the shelf?
Faulkner Family
Posts: 18085
Date Joined: 11/03/08
sombo jigging i can
sombo jigging i can understand but not jigging for the others as there will be by catch that has to go basck and what chance will they have
RUSS and SANDY. A family that fishes together stays together
Adam Gallash
Posts: 15653
Date Joined: 29/11/05
ruby snapper
Are actually ruby jobfish, which is tropical snapper, which would be banned as well one would assume...?
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BlueJuice
Posts: 12
Date Joined: 16/07/09
ruby snapper ... gem fish
adam, we have looked into this thoroughly,
family name "Lutjanidae" trust me it is not on the list.
niether are Gem fish. and there are many others out there... while most others we complaining about the ban we spent a great deal of effort looking at what we can do for our customers.
I hear some charter companies are going to chase sailfish and marlin with upto 20pax... not for us...
hlokk
Posts: 4294
Date Joined: 04/04/08
I'm sorry to break it to
I'm sorry to break it to you, but all Lutjanids are indeed on the ban list. All tropical snappers, family Lutjanidae are on the demersal ban list. See page 7 here.
I'm not sure what gem fish are, do you have a species or genus name for them?
I support your goals of allowing your customers to fish for other species that arent on the list. Its good to see rather than complaining you are making an effort thinking about alternative options (and putting in the groundwork to verify those options before the season closure starts). I wish you good luck in pursuing such options (as long as the options are within the law and responsible of course, but I think this is certainly your goal as well as ours).
However, I think it is a legitimate concern that other species might be caught, and due to the depths are unlikely to survive release. Now, it may be that these species are typically considered bycatch, but that you have found some areas in which they are the majority catch with very little bycatch of any prohibited species. If so, then kudos to you, and I am glad you have found good alternative options, and you should be allowed to pursue those options.
If cods and other prohibited species are a common bycatch though (I know dhufish, snapper, etc, the popular ones are unlikely in that depth), I think its fair and justifyable that some people on these forums (myself included) are against it. I hope this is not the case (though, I suspect many people would need to be convinced of this before believing it).
For the record, heres the relevant excerpt from the document I linked above
Faulkner Family
Posts: 18085
Date Joined: 11/03/08
Tropical snappers and sea
The Ruby Snapper is a fairly long fish with a forked tail. It is red or reddish pink above, and pinkish to white below. The margins of the dorsal fin and tail are red. The tip of the lower lobe of the tail is white. The Ruby Snapper is a good eating fish and is marketed fresh or frozen.
Size
length to 120cm, but usually seen much smaller
Habitat
Inhabits rocky bottoms. Found on the continental shelf and slope waters in depths from 90m to 400m.
Food
squid, fish, crustaceans.
Range
The Ruby Snapper is found in tropical waters of the Indo-west and Central Pacific. In Australia it is found off north-western coast of Western Australia and off the north east coast of Queensland.
Classification
Class: Actinopterygii Order: Perciformes Family: Lutjanidae Genus: Etelis Species: carbunculus Common Name: Ruby Snapper
RUSS and SANDY. A family that fishes together stays together
HuggyB
Posts: 2515
Date Joined: 03/08/08
thats what I thought as well Adam
I was under the impression all those deep water species (puka, GBC, BET, RS etc) were all on that demersal listing?
Unless they changed it?!?
EDIT: Tropical snapper is on the demersal list, so me thinks somebody better tell the well informed charter operators they cant target them. For the love of god, you'd think they could at least get that right?
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till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
I did think the point of
I did think the point of adding all the deepwater stuff was to stop people targetting them while a ban on the original V5 list was on, and a good idea, its also why they reduced the pelagic take, to stop people hammering them whilst they can't fish for other types of fish.
I have to admit to not looking at the fine print, my 4.2m tinny doesn't really get out to the 200-200m zones for ruby snapper =0
Must be a bit embarassing though for a charter operator though.
Edit: I looked for tropical snapper and didn't find it, but its tropical sea perch?
Tim
Posts: 2497
Date Joined: 26/09/06
Here
Jamie have a look here. http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/docs/pub/RecFishArrange/new%20rules%20at%20a%20glance.pdf
This lists the fish you cant target during the ban including Tropical Snappers (Jobfish).
Tim
Posts: 2497
Date Joined: 26/09/06
Research
Some interesting quotes there from the website.
Wonder what other fish they think they are going to be able to catch as well.
Seeing as the new rules say you cant fish for them will be hard to argue that you weren't when its plastered all over the net
till
Posts: 9358
Date Joined: 21/02/08
For sure, its not like ruby
For sure, its not like ruby snapper are exactly a sportsfish either.
Ta for that other link too, its a lot more clear than the gazette I linked.
Alan James
Posts: 2242
Date Joined: 30/06/09
Gemfish
What's the history of catching gemfish off Perth? A pleasant bycatch I think in NZ whilst targetting puka, bass and bluenose but are they a regular catch off our metro waters?
Tim
Posts: 2497
Date Joined: 26/09/06
Bycatch
By Catch here too Alan.
Not enough of them to say your out there targeting them and not all the other bottom species.
Auslobster
Posts: 1901
Date Joined: 03/05/08
Most of you...
....would know better than me regarding when the sambo jigging really starts to fire, but isn't it pretty much after the ban finishes anyway? I reckon the punters who will be going out on charters the next two months will only be able to get sweep, skippy, and if they're really lucky, a KG or two. Well worth the $300 or whatever a charter costs these days
With that in mind, I think from the fish stocks point of view, it would make more sense to have the ban in Dec/Jan when dhufish/snapper spawning activity is greater, and the sambo fishing is at it's best, but of course banning demersal fishing during the summer holidays would be an ecomomic disaster so it's still about making money and not saving fish.
jersey
Posts: 393
Date Joined: 12/06/08
I cannot believe
How Nieve some of the recreational public are,to actually think that commercial interests were going to be ignored by a politician?I support the season closure for any threatened fish, like Auslobster,I would like to see December/ January added to the closed period,and his comment re the reasoning behind it. Many agree that, fishing around Perth waters has declined greatly in the past 10/15 years,and some of that is from the encreased number of recreational boats,larger,better powerd,and money for fuel,that many people have also, more sopisicated electronics,I bet if we, as a group look at the boats and gear we had and were we fished,20/25 years ago I know I have seen a huge change,people think nothing of going out to Direction bank,and some days it is like Hay Street. When I first started,we launched over the beach at Pinnaroo Point,and fished the cray floats,no sounder,and did not know what a gps was.but we caught fish,all types of the V5,So I put my hand up,i contributed to the decline of local fish stockes,along with most of you around the age of 45/60.but due to knowing what it was like,I know it cannot continue,The Fisheries have done the right thing in advising the Goverments (both Laboure & Libs) and in turn these have legislaterd to stop SOME proffessionals ,(cray fisherman) from double dipping,and for that I appluade them,but we are a fragmented groupe,we do not have the political leverage as does the commercial lobby,Yes ,we had a small victory over the previous draconian license fees,but,to think that this ,or any other goverment would stop money (commercial ) activities,?As I have stated when the Bans/closed season ,was first proposed,I supported it ,BUT,It must be for all,not just the recreationals,but then the commercial charter ,boats will lose money after all If a V5 is caught by a person in a 5/8mtr recreational boat or from a 10/15mtr charter and its full of roe,its dead,and wors still,if it has not spawned its gone for ever,my thoughts,some will find fault,with them but,hay,we have a democracy I think.jersey
Alan James
Posts: 2242
Date Joined: 30/06/09
V21 not V5
V5 appears to have stuck in people's minds. It is V21 not V5. We had a small win, yeah right.
Faulkner Family
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Date Joined: 11/03/08
Alan James "We had a small
Alan James "We had a small win, yeah right."................................... we had a big win if you look at it Alan, 1/ fee have dropped 2/ boat limits have gone 3/ no max size now on grey banded cod. so you can not go out fishing for a couple of mths so what and you can not kill as many dhu fish as before good thing not bad ....Yes i feel we had a good out come, this way we can still go out deep or fish in close and have a good day out with a nice feed at the end . What more do you want . JMO SANDY
RUSS and SANDY. A family that fishes together stays together
Alan James
Posts: 2242
Date Joined: 30/06/09
A small win
Sandy, there was a reduction in fees although some would have been happy to live with that. Not sure if that's a win. The more stringent conditions on the taking of dhufish, that is a good thing, I agree win. I don't see much other wins. JMO.
HuggyB
Posts: 2515
Date Joined: 03/08/08
um
there is a boat limit (dhufish) - 2/boat
http://www.fish.wa.gov.au/docs/pub/RecFishArrange/new%20rules%20at%20a%20glance.pdf
The Terrorist - coming to a fishing spot near you.........
Faulkner Family
Posts: 18085
Date Joined: 11/03/08
ok i conseed Brendan
I forgot to mention that one *POUT* but that is the only one
RUSS and SANDY. A family that fishes together stays together
HuggyB
Posts: 2515
Date Joined: 03/08/08
yeah
its not that I catch enough dhufish to worry about the catch/boat limit anyway!
The Terrorist - coming to a fishing spot near you.........
Faulkner Family
Posts: 18085
Date Joined: 11/03/08
ha ha ha same thing here *LOL*
Lucky to get one a year got to get the boat in the water anyways first *LOL*
RUSS and SANDY. A family that fishes together stays together
Blackbetty-50
Posts: 96
Date Joined: 17/08/07
Total Ban
If the Government were genuine in their endeavours to protect our dwindling fish stocks they would introduce a Total Fishing Ban over the major spawning periods for these so called vulnerable species, whether it is the v5 or the v21. If a total ban does not include all 3 sectors, Pros, Charter Operators as well as Recreational fishermen this pathetic attempt at trying to reduce the catch is a bloody joke. If the Netting or should I say Murdering of whole schools of fish during these spawning period is not stopped then Norman Moore and the fools who feed him the shit that he has used to implement these ridiculous new rules they are going to be a complete waste of time and will only devastate the already depleted state our very special fishery even further. Murdering nets have devastated fish stocks all around the world and yet our ILLUSTRIOUS Pollies and so called Experts have chosen to ignore this, makes you wonder if our leaders and so called experts are qualified enough to make the proper decisions on these very important matters.
Alan James
Posts: 2242
Date Joined: 30/06/09
The Experts
The experts idendified the V5 and then 3 months later the experts identified the V21. 16 more species become high risk vulnerable species. How did these experts get the V5 so wrong in the first place or are we getting led up the garden path.
Andy Mac
Posts: 4778
Date Joined: 03/02/06
V5 - V21
Personally I think the move to a 21 list is more of a barotrauma management decision than a specific shift in the number of species at risk.
Looks to me like the extra species were added in to discourage people from bottom fishing in areas where the V5 are likely to be found. Species that escaped the list are either shallow water or sandy bottom species.
I doubt the extra 16 species are anywhere near as vulnerable as the original 5.
Just my opinion, but something the policy makers would have considered as a possible solution to by-catch barotrauma issues which would have seen the ban period having a significantly lesser effect had they allowed us to target the extra 16 on that list.
PS: Charter boats are classed as recreational fishing as the people fishing are joe public.
Cheers
Andy Mac (Fishwrecked Reeltime Editor & Forum Moderator)
Youngest member of the Fishwrecked Old Farts Club
hlokk
Posts: 4294
Date Joined: 04/04/08
Right on the money there I
Right on the money there I think Andy. Having mandatory release weights on board is another one of the measures that shows they are aware of barotrauma risks.
Good to see the max size limit on grayband was removed. It makes sense for shallow water cods up north, but deep water cods are unlikely to survive release (at least not in a majority of cases). Though the limit was just lifted on just one species, not all of the deepwater fish. Wouldnt it be cool if you could attach cameras to such fish, and watch how they swim around down there after being released. Unfortunately probably not all that feasible, but I can dream.
Alan James
Posts: 2242
Date Joined: 30/06/09
Barotrauma Management
Andy I think you are probably correct however there are 3 species that jump out at me (others may see more) on the V21 list that I don't think fall into that category. Hapuku, bass groper and trevella. I don't think many of the V5 regularly share habitat with these guys and so the ban on taking any of these 3 would appear to be for some other reason. JMO.
Andy Mac
Posts: 4778
Date Joined: 03/02/06
Effort displacement
I think the categorising of the deep water species in the list is to help manage the displacement of effort Alan.
As Tim points out in another thread, those fish are even slower growing than the Dhuie so a big push on them will likely concentrate damage to these stocks, of which quite little is known. They are big fish with high meat yield so most dhuie fisherman will likely see them as a natural replacement target.
Similarly they all suffer massive barotrauma (check out Tim's article in Issue 2 of the Reeltime mag) so I think the barotrauma aspecs still came into play with the decision to include these in the list.
Cheers
Andy Mac (Fishwrecked Reeltime Editor & Forum Moderator)
Youngest member of the Fishwrecked Old Farts Club
Alan James
Posts: 2242
Date Joined: 30/06/09
Deep Water Species
Andy I see the inclusion of the deep water species on the V21 as a definite block on a potential replacement target as you suggest. Yes they are a slow growing with slow reproductive rates and therefore need to be monitored with respect to over fishing. I just don't think we know enough about them at present and the ban of these species is more of a "let's shut down an alternative" rather than putting in place necessary protective measures.
Also I'm not sure that most dhuie fisherman will see these species as a natural replacement target. There is a lot of water between 20m or 40m and 250m+. The effort that goes into targetting these deep water species is considerable and I would suggest the opportunities to fish for said species is somewhat limited considering the tackle, weather and boat requirements necessary to venture some 60km offshore. Would there really be large numbers of anglers targetting these 3. My gut feeling says no. But banned they are, get used to it and move on.
Andy Mac
Posts: 4778
Date Joined: 03/02/06
I agree with you Alan
I wont be targetting them, but my fear is many of the "very successful" dhuie chasers that account for a large amount of the dhuie take would have been tempted.
I think I shouldnt have used the word "most" in relation to how many would have actually targeted them if they were not on the list.
Cheers
Andy Mac (Fishwrecked Reeltime Editor & Forum Moderator)
Youngest member of the Fishwrecked Old Farts Club
Andy Mac
Posts: 4778
Date Joined: 03/02/06
Politics and fishing
Modern day politicians have many "Expert" advisors, each in their respective fields
-Environment
-Economics
-Politics
among others, and their job is to find a solution that is both popular, environmentally sound and economically responsible. My guess is that each one of their "Expert" advisors is butting heads with each of the others.
Find me a politician that can tick all those boxes and I will show you a Nobel Peace Prize winner.
Is the current management plan what I want?.... not exactly, but I think it is a step in the right direction and I can understand the reasoning behind some of the unpalatable decisions.
If you don't like the taste of the medicine our sick demersal fishery has been given, can I suggest you try holding your nose and swallow... or sweeten the taste with some excellent pelagic fishing, succulent sandwhiting or even popper chucking for tailor.
if it still gets you down, look forward to how things might be in the future if they achieve a 50% reduction in catch for several years running. Fishing might never get back to what it was like 20 years ago, but if we can at least stop it declining any more than it already has, surely that is a good thing.
Cheers
Andy Mac (Fishwrecked Reeltime Editor & Forum Moderator)
Youngest member of the Fishwrecked Old Farts Club
BlueJuice
Posts: 12
Date Joined: 16/07/09
politics & fishing 2
agree largely with you andy, as a charter operator it is in our interest to see these fish and others around for a long time.
re 50% reduction, this is from the fisheries research
" The closure of the Metropolitan zone to commercial fishers for demersal scalefish has the potential to reduce the total pink snapper catch by 41 tonnes (approximately 67 per cent of the total catch). This measure alone exceeds the anagement requirement to reduce catches by 50 per cent (provided the recreational catch does not increase in the absence of commercial fishing)."
I like the new bag limits, I like more research etc, the ban I fail to see it proving itself, many other issues come into play that politics will not talk about,
eg commercial shark netting on our coast was killing between 80 to 120 tonne per annum of demersals, many years ago they tried to work a solution with the powerd that be only to be turned away.
10 boats using nets =approx 800 to 1200 tonne per year... not wanting to put an bad vibes on commercials because they are doing it tough and tried damn hard years ago anly to have it all fall on deaf ears and now they are paying the price. no fair either.
these fish are coming back, we are currently returning approx 30 snapper and around 10 dhu fish per day that are undersize snapper 38 - 40cm these stocks are growing and with the new bag limits and may be a max size cap too we should see them continue to improve.
Blackbetty-50
Posts: 96
Date Joined: 17/08/07
Vulnerable Species
If our fish stocks are as bad as the so called experts are ramming down our throats then Close the fishery down to every one, Pros,Charter boats and Recreational fishermen for the prime spawning times. All problems solved, in a few years time our fish stocks will improve out of sight. Grab a brain people, no nets plenty of fish for everyone, ban the bloody murdering f**king nets before these fools destroy this fishery for ever !!!!!!!!
With these stupid new rules there will be dead fish up and down the entire coast, as people catch a bigger fish the dead ones in the icebox will go over the side, people are greedy.
Kasey L.
Posts: 1390
Date Joined: 02/03/06
I would like to think I have
I would like to think I have touched a bit of Deepwater Fishing but to say that there are enough Gemfish out there to do charters for.. of 14 people on board!
I have my serious reservations.
And then to say that you can avoid all the other 'easier to catch species' like Puka, Bass, Trevala, Grey Bands...
Kasey L.
Posts: 1390
Date Joined: 02/03/06
I'm also curious to know
I'm also curious to know what other 'species' there are, besides Gemfish - which I still don't think is a common enough species around Perth to be targeted by a charter operation.
It's a bloody, bloody long way out to 300-400m and on a big Charter boat I have to say that's going to be alot of time spent waiting for the customer! Just to the 100's takes about an hour to 90 minutes just for Sambos!
DazSamFishing
Posts: 1518
Date Joined: 19/08/09
Not to mention the time it
Not to mention the time it will take the 'average' angler using non specialised gear to drop/retrieve a bait & 2kg's of lead.
Certainly targeted towards a very select audience.
Fisherman
Posts: 47
Date Joined: 11/10/09
Not quite related to
Not quite related to Bluejuice Charters, I find it hard to understand how a fee payed to the Government gives a company the right to drag our oceans bare. Example: Kailis Fisheries have recently purchased a fishing boat, allowing them to drag nets around the ocean floor for Red Emporer, Spangled Emporer and other prized fish. How the hell can a license justify raping our ocean of prize fish stocks, and then fisheries hit the recreational fisherman with all types of stupid rules and regulations. I know someone who worked around this boat when it came back into town to offload, and apparently quite a few fish go over the side dead.
Fisheries have also just handed a brand new 4WD to someone that works behind a desk at our fisheries office, from what I understand, she only uses it to travel a 2km round trip to work and back each day.
Adam Gallash
Posts: 15653
Date Joined: 29/11/05
yes
That car's not permanent. Theres a reason behind everything, but I'm not saying anymore coz I'll get in trouble.
As for the K town, people have to eat fish and when they're paying top dollar, well... I know the boys on the boat aren't happy because the grounds are up around Karratha and its 2 days travel to get there and and 2 back because the factory is in Exmouth.
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swoffer
Posts: 83
Date Joined: 30/12/06
That would be BOATS not boat
That would be BOATS not boat .
Adam Gallash
Posts: 15653
Date Joined: 29/11/05
new one
Was referring to the new one, but yes, sure it is boats. Must have been pleasant out there the last couple of nights Alan.
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Fisherman
Posts: 47
Date Joined: 11/10/09
Fair enough Adam.
Fair enough Adam.
Adam Gallash
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for the record
For the record, it wasn't me or any of the moderator team that removed the other thread............
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Jody
Posts: 1578
Date Joined: 19/04/07
Not suprising really
Can't have been terribly good for business ;)
Still...there were a few very important questions that should've been answered before Bluejuice pulled the thread, and are now gone ......?
TWiZTED
mako magic
Posts: 5785
Date Joined: 03/08/05
maybe a phone call to the
maybe a phone call to the office might give some answers
Colin Hay
Posts: 10407
Date Joined: 23/10/07
That is very interesting
I thoughgt they were being pretty brave coming on board and opening up a post to discuss the situation. Guess I was wrong?
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slam
Posts: 168
Date Joined: 09/09/09
Slightly different track
I recently heard from a tackle shop that even though cray fishermen have been banned from using a wet line while dropping pots etc, If they have no pots on board they are allowed to fish instead.
Does anyone know anymore about that or it is correct?
Tone
Posts: 12
Date Joined: 14/09/09
No thats not correct mate,
No thats not correct mate, they must have the correct endorsements to fish within that specific fishery.
FISHING!!!!!!!!!!
dumper
Posts: 1027
Date Joined: 03/04/08
blue juice have canned the
blue juice have canned the deepwater fishing till after the bans finished